Hiten Patel: Thank you very much for joining us on today's show, and we are delighted to welcome Christian Kromann, the CEO of SimCorp. I'm co-hosting today's episode with my colleague, Magnus Burkl, who leads a lot of our infrastructure and technology work here in Europe. Welcome both.
Christian Kromann: Thank you very much. We have been looking forward to it.
Magnus Burkl: Thank you, Hiten.
Hiten: Christian, why don't you start with a brief intro to your role and the company that you lead today.
Christian: Yeah, thank you very much. So yeah, I'm the CEO of SimCorp. So, what is SimCorp? SimCorp is a financial technology company really focused on the investment management industry on a global scale. We have around 3,500 colleagues nowadays serving around 800 clients around the globe, literally around the globe. And we've been doing it actually, for 53 years. So, it's super exciting to work with a company that has been for so long in an ever-changing sector of the financial industry.
Hiten: Awesome, awesome, and great to have you. Can we? I always like to just rewind the tape. You know you didn't, you weren't born into this role, right? You didn't start and just ended up as a senior leader at a cutting-edge technology firm. Talk to me a little bit about the journey. Risk manager at Nordea, your times at FIS, like what were the early chapters of your career like?
Christian: I think in reality it started way back when math was one of the things that I enjoyed the most in in school. There was kind of, you could have a result, you could put two lines on. It was, it was easy to understand whether it was right or wrong. So, I spent time on that, and also kind of when I choose education, and I chose something that was related to math. Eventually, at least for me, I didn't want to use math, only I wanted to apply it to something and kind of in the mid-nineties was really where the sophistication of the financial industry started to take off, derivatives was really taking off. You had the very kind of early-stage pieces of software that could calculate sophisticated risk capabilities and all of these things. So, I've really found a nice link between math, finance, and then technology, I would say relatively early on in my career.
Christian: Then, I ended up working in Nordea. That at that point was, still is a quite a sophisticated financial institution in the Nordic countries. They were quite ambitious on the derivative side. So, it meant that because they were investing a lot in sophisticated financial instruments, they also had to invest in sophisticated risk capabilities. And I was lucky enough to sit in the middle of that, doing a lot of these things with a great team for the first time ever developing real value of risk capabilities for sophisticated derivatives. And that was really the embryo.
Hiten: Paint the picture for me a bit more Christian, SunGard, in that era. Roughly how many employees? What was it like there? Now everyone has an image of technology companies, you have pinewood behind you and everything is super slick, and technology is now at the pinnacle but back then what was it like? Paint the picture of SunGard and your role back then.
Christian: Both the sector as well as SunGard, it was early days. There was a lot of new technology being invented and the reality was a lot of the technology was really early stage. And people needed to learn to how to use technology. SunGard at that point was quite acquisitive so they bought quite a lot of those applications, and actually kept them on their own. So I wouldn't call it the Wild West but there was a lot going on for the first time where people started to understand how to use technology in a bigger space. The particular part of SunGard I joined was a very European-oriented, sophisticated platform. We had a small office in Copenhagen and we were part of a big international group. So I spent the best part of ten years traveling around and implementing systems at European financial institutions, which was, you learned crazy amounts very early on. And I would say even to this day, even though I am probably rusty, from an implementation point of view, I understand and appreciate the complexity of implementing sophisticated technology for firms like that. And I have to say I still use that even in CEO to CEO dialogues because if you dont understand the finer details of doing such a transformation then I don't think you provide enough value.
Hiten: It is interesting because I'd imagine some of the CEOs at some of the other publicly listed companies, they may not have the same dirt under the fingernails, and when you talk about your story at the start you have really been at the coal face in understanding what is happening at the front end. That sounds like a pretty valuable foundation. Talk to me about how you go from there to ending up in the seat you're in today?
Christian: Yeah, I would say, kind of after doing this for almost a decade, I think two things happened. I got into general management. As part of that, I started to figure out what's kind of, what does Christian actually like doing? And I like doing a bit of both through those years. I like the general management, try to motivate and lead teams, but I still liked and really enjoyed the closer client contact. And so that was really what my job was for period, I actually ended up being more on the sales side. Because reality was that also the profession of sales, also changed quite a lot. You really had to be a value add in your in your sales process and having that consultative selling which requires a domain knowledge kind of fitted my skills really well. And one thing you quickly learn is if you want to do something in an American driven firm, sales is typically the road to the top. Right? You need to demonstrate you can move the needle on the top line, and SunGard, as it was called those days was an extreme sale driven organization. It was the sales leaders that were making a lot of the decisions. And I followed that trend. Up until a point where SunGard was taken private. And through those years, a big part of the taking private was to consolidate a lot of their businesses. So I was so fortunate that I ended up playing quite a significant role in them consolidating all the pieces they had in in the capital markets front to back space for quite a period. And that was, that was yeah. It was super exciting, because it was, it was really all about getting several more distinct teams to work together as a larger group.
Christian: That was also really where my career took me outside Europe. Understanding how to work in the Asian Pacific, also understanding how to navigate inside a very North American oriented company. I had a stint in Paris with the family as we integrated a couple of key businesses together. And in the end of the SunGard days, you know I was running a team of more than a thousand people.
Hiten: Wow!
Christian: In multiple, multiple locations. So that whole dynamic between building technology for sophisticated organization on a global scale, I really learned a lot, a lot through these years.
Hiten: So, it sounds like a huge part of your growth journey was actually through that era at SunGard. It sounds like quite a rounded and complete curriculum, right, from someone who was skilled at the implementation of practitioner on the product end to then becoming a salesperson through to manager like, it's actually quite a rounded curriculum through that, through that era.
Christian: I think, what and I, it's not necessarily particular about the SunGard let's say. But I had a conversation with my sons the other day that are going through their kind of educational journey, and we debated - is it good to start in a small company and you kind of get a lot of knowledge in a short time, or should you actually start in a large company where you can actually move around and try to really get things on that. I think you can probably argue. But I was really happy that I spent so many years in a company where they were, they were willing to give young people real responsibility and let them try out something that you probably would never have been given in a smaller company. Right? So that's at least an advice I would give to other people. Make sure you get yourself the opportunity to learn many things and obviously, and another thing is, I was, I think I spent a lot of time figuring out, did I want to become kind of domain expert and really go down that track?
Hiten: Yeah, yeah.
Christian: Did I want to become a leader and a manager of people? And in the end, I, as I probably said a few times, I enjoy the nerdiness of our business, but I certainly chose the managerial track relatively early on in my career.
Hiten: I wish I had a seat at your kitchen table for that conversation, I'd love to have chimed in. I guess my take is you get very different things from the small company and the larger company. Right? The small company you’re forced to do, right? You gotta be able to prove you can get things done in those, those, each of those different roles. And at the bigger company you probably need to learn to navigate, right? How do you manage upwards and transcend so it's, I think it's a fascinating, fascinating debate. Let me move you on. Talk to me about your entry to SimCorp. Talk to me about your SimCorp journey.
Christian: Yeah, there was a bit of a stint in between. So when I, when SunGard got sold to FIS that I feel there was a probably a good point to decide, kind of after 16, almost 17 years, is that where you're gonna spend the rest of your life, or what is the up and down, and I had a long discussion both with my wife and with myself, is now, what do you want to do, right? I felt that I wanted to become a CEO, it was part of the path I wanted to pursue. And I was also, I was quite humbled to that fact. So, I wanted to do that in a smaller company first, and that took me to a 3-year stint in a company called Tia Technology. They do a complete platform, but just for the insurance part of an insurance company. Right? So, policy management, claims management, all the complicated calculations with, you know, funny enough if you look at it but distantly enough, it reminds me very much of the processes of financial institutions. But it was still a technology company. The evolution was the same. So, for that kind of. Once you sit at the end of the table, you realize it's different than other managerial jobs. Whether the company is big or small doesn't really matter. You kind of mentally make that change.
Hiten: Top of the pyramid. No one you can pass the book to.
Christian: Exactly. And then eventually, SimCorp came along and kind of indicated that there was a very interesting opportunity there. So, I actually joined SimCorp as COO. For a period of time where I had the opportunity to kind of learn the company inside out, side by side with, at that point, CEO. So, I ran the, you can say, the client facing part of it. That gave me an opportunity to spend a lot of time with clients, understand what was really under their skin, and what was going on. Unfortunately, was more or less at the same time as Covid kind of came out. So, it also became some years of, wouldn't call it crisis management, but obviously the world was changing relatively rapidly, and we went from not being able to travel to see clients, to sitting at home and everything that we’ve been through. And then eventually the Board asked me if I wanted to succeed Klaus (that was the CEO). And on my part that was, that was a very exciting offer, and obviously something I've never regretted since it's been great 3 and a half years, a bit more than 3 years.
Hiten: Excellent, excellent! I'm going to, going to shift it on the conversation a little bit, and bring my colleague Magnus in, who leads a lot of work that we do in the investment management community. I'd like you both to just explore a little bit what's going on in the buy side community that SimCorp focuses on, what some of the challenges and opportunities that are particularly around software technology, particularly around some of the things that you provide, Christian. So maybe, Christian, you want to kick us off on how you see things and throw it to Magnus as well.
Christian: I think there's probably, there's some kind of trends that are kind of reoccurring from time to time, and then I think there's some mega trends that I just wanna reflect a little bit on. So, I think if I should kind of, the thing that has affected us the most, if you will, overall, is that in the last 5 years there's been a fundamental shift in how people consume what we have to offer. I think Covid actually in the end ended up playing a large role in that change, and I always share the anecdote that when I started in August 19, so I had roughly 6 months before the world changed. I managed to travel around, and yes, North America was clearly on the path that they wanted software as a service. Otherwise, you couldn't sell there. But the rest of the world was almost to the other extreme. And I remember conversations in continental Europe, German-speaking part of Europe where people said never, ever will that happen. We're never going to consume what you have to offer as software, as a service. And the same people, more or less 12 to 18 months later, said, well, we need to have it now. Reality, of course, was that business continuity questions arose from the COVID situation, and at the same time we also start to see emerging cyber risk concerns, etc. right? So for us going from yes, we had something a bit more tactical for the North American part of the world to that software as a service was the entry point to the entire industry, plus the fact that we had a large client base that needed to move the needle on that conversation fundamentally changed what we needed to do as a company, right? So that has been a huge transformative journey that we are still in the path on. We now have more than 100 clients that have gone that route. And we have now large-scale clients everywhere in the world. So, I would say, we now have the full setup. But we still have quite a few clients that need to make the move and those things. So, from a leadership point of view, from a cultural change point of view, for SimCorp, that has by far been the biggest one.
Christian: Then secondary, if you say, and somewhat links into some of them all, or kind of reoccurring themes is, obviously we've been through a period where interest went up, AuMs got under pressure, because all right, people said, well, if I could get 5% putting the money in the bank account, maybe that's okay. AuM [Assets under Management] was going down at a relatively fast pace. Still, a lot of buy side firms have a cost base that have nearly not been optimized because they haven't done enough investments into technology. Add to now, yes, all right, the interest rate is now down again. We see some inflows coming back. But nevertheless, I think the sector had a bit of a shock that now they may realize that whoever, the parts of the sector that haven't done the technology investments the last 5 to 10 years need to do something drastic around that and that obviously, if you're a technology firm is great news but we also have to be aware that the way they look at it is, of course, a traditional, what features and functions do you have, but it's also a conversation about how fast can you get me there? How can you standardize the way I work? And all of those things? And out of that has actually emerged some hybrid offerings. I would say, we call them business services, and what we mean by that is services we can perform for our customers on our own software. So, we're basically performing work that they in principle could do. But we do it on their installation on our software. And sometimes that's called partial outsourcing.
Christian: Because it's a technology driven outsourcing as compared to a traditional BPO. So, some of these things are really evolving from the fact that the industry is looking at technology as a solution. More than just hey, let's give it and take the work out, we don't know how to solve it. And that's, we're quite excited about that. We have a bit more than 20 clients that are going that route. But out of the 800 that's obviously still only a fraction. And if you kind of take that entire journey and put it together between moving from a traditional technology company delivering a piece of tech plus actually sourcing that through software as a service model, and now adding business services on top - that's a big change. And it requires substantial, better understanding of how our clients are working than what we had going back. Because if you want to educate and give them standards, it means that we need to have people that actually have worked through those standardization at clients. And you can also see the population we now have, which I think when we started, we were around 1,500 1,600 people. We added a close to 2,000 people in 5 years. This is, from a leadership point of view, a fantastic opportunity to change the, both change the culture, and also the mindset of the of the company. But maybe I'll pause a little bit there, and let Magnus say something as well.
Magnus: Yeah, thanks, Christian. And you know, look from our perspective, what you are describing comes at a pivotal point for the industry. Right? As you say the cost pressure is getting immense for your clients. And the need to deploy technology, like the technology SimCorp is offering, is becoming a critical success factor in their own businesses and operating models. But, on the other hand, we also see the competitive environment getting much fiercer, right? And your clients want to focus on what's really differentiating for them. They want to differentiate on the client service side. They want to differentiate on the investment side, and they don't want to necessarily deal with certain activities anymore as you've outlined with business services, right? And they are looking for new ways to construct the operating model, much leaner ways to run the operating model, hybrid ways to have the operating model, and we were quite intrigued by SimCorp One that you launched a couple of months ago, and sort of how you're trying to bring this all together for clients. So why don't you walk us quickly through what is the notion. What's the idea behind SimCorp One?
Christian: Yeah, thanks for that, Magnus. So maybe we go just a little bit back in history, just for a couple of seconds. Right? So, as I said, SimCorp is now 53 years old. Of course, there's been many iterations of what we do over those years. But I would say relatively early on in the story of SimCorp, the people and the founders got together there. They basically put their minds together about the basic fact that in order to succeed in the buy side you need an IBOR, right? That was the, that was the idea.
Hiten: Christian, just for the laymans in the audience. Just explain quickly the IBOR.
Christian: A big part of this industry is in speaking in acronyms. So, nobody understands what we talk about. Investment Book of Record. And that has a sister that’s called the Accounting Book of Record. The idea behind that term is that you have a true view of what is going on in your investment portfolio. And the idea behind that was and we kind of stuck to that. The whole idea was if you can create a real time environment where all your positions, all your reconciliation, all your corporate actions for any asset class is always up to date in the Investment Book of Record, then you have a much better opportunity to make the right decision. That was the, that was the idea. Obviously, when they started building this, the world was substantially more simple. Alternatives was not a thing. And yeah, derivatives and all the things which we just talked about. But SimCorp has stuck to that fundamental point that we natively want to build one single platform, one piece of technology, that supports the entire value chain all as it was. That's, that's and that's what we still do. And we still have a substantial part of our developers, making sure that that always covers the entire value chain and always covers all asset classes, and on an annual basis we decided to build alternatives into the, to the platform natively and not go out and buy a platform. Anyway. That's the starting point. The philosophy here is that it needs to become a platform, right? And that’s really the idea. And that's where we're building from now. Over the years we've done a few acquisitions, one for client reporting, kind of extending that capability. One for data management extending that capability and data management is, in that context, all the inbound data you need to make sure that SimCorp works for the IBOR and that the IBOR is correct. Obviously, if the corporate actions that come in are wrong, then the IBOR is also wrong, and so forth, and so forth. And then finally, now, as part of the Deutsche Börse family, we merged Axioma, the risk capability also into SimCorp. So, on one side, we still have one platform that does all of it in, kind of as a foundational value proposition. Then we got additional capabilities that adds to the value. The philosophy, and what we want to communicate to our clients is that the fact that it's one platform gives them a lot of benefits as you go through. Then you have to say, okay, the platform, the software as a service, the standards, the capability around business services, everything that goes with it. Plus, the fact that there’s different capabilities became extremely difficult to explain. In a world where we maintained individual brand names. And that was what we've done. And we felt that the fact that we've gone from traditional technology to a standardized SaaS plus that we have extended to risk and other things warranted a proper way of packaging that, both from a pricing, delivery model, standardization and all of that.
Christian: But frankly also, and I know I now share that in the public, we also need to change people's minds from the point of view that we come very far from where we've been 5 years ago, and all of that is encapsulated in the SimCorp One message to the market. So, on one point we are saying to the existing clients, let's find a path for you through that. And none of it is re-implementation. Right? That's very important. You're staying on the IBOR you started on. but we also needed to explain to the markets that are not currently a client - "hey, there's a conversation to be had. Why don't we have a chat about it."
Hiten: There's a lot, there's a lot of powerful in there, Christian for me, because I feel too often there's a lazy view of the world that every answer has to be software. Software, software, software, software to every single problem, there is a software answer. And what you lay out in SimCorp One which I, which I think is powerful, but I think the world needs to go on a journey to understand is take the client lens, that you talk about, the problems that Magnus described. You know you look at it in its entirety. It probably, it needs a mix, right, that mix of the software with the services, the support, the standardization, and that might be that next frontier. But I, there's always this lagging view, and I'm going to lazily blame it on the investors. But the investor view that, like, I need a purity of my revenue earning streams, it needs to be software only, and heaven forbid if there was going to be a touch of services next to it, it would dilute the quality. But you take the client end situation you described, the problem you described you're solving, and comes pretty clear, right? That software is a key component. But it needs some other stuff around it. It feels like where you're probably at the frontier, right? I feel more people will need to follow this pattern in other industries. But it feels like you, you're on the frontier here it feels, I don't know if that's a fair observation.
Christian: That's obviously in line with what we think, right. But I think what is also quite important for us in that context is that, and that's even amplified in through a Deutsche Börse ownership is the neutrality of what we do, right, in the end what we really want to give our clients is options. Starting with having the platform, you can then choose what custodian you want to work. You can choose who you want to invest through, you can basically choose what you want. And to that addition, we actually build an ecosystem of around 130 Fintech companies that have, that we kind of offer as integrated into SimCorp. So, you can choose, you know, who do you want to use for EMS. Who do you want to, those kinds of things? But the whole, the whole idea is, once you buy into the platform, if you buy into a slice, or whether you do the full monty, if you will, doesn't really matter. It should give you, once you've done that, you have access to choose your own path through the operating model changes you go through. And there I think we are, both because of who we are, and the fact that we're neutral to asset managers, custodians, whatever you want to say, and how we built the IBOR from the starting point. I think we are, we like to think we are on the forefront.
Magnus: Thanks, Christian, and what you describe, I think you know, when we look at the market, that front to back nature that you are lining out is quite powerful for the operating model, the simplification, and then the optionality you as a client can have by picking certain things that you want, to standardize, certain things that you want to, want to outsource. But there's one element that we think is very powerful for the future. Ultimately in the investment management world we are talking about data, right? And we are not a car company that, you know, is building and putting parts together. Right? We are shuffling data from one function to the other function, right? And you know, everything is dematerialized. And it's all about data in that front to back construct. So, what would be interesting to hear is, you know, in that SimCorp One in that front to back construct, what's the next frontier, in particular, when we think around data analytics, when we think about gen AI. What’s your view? Where? What's the next frontier looking like in 5 years from now?
Christian: Yeah, we have. That's a good question. Right? We actually are just kind of in the middle of looking at what the world could look like in 2030, which is far out in both technology and the financial world. Of course, AI is the first two letters that pop up right. It's hard to not think about that. I'll say for me there's two, at least two conversations in that that we are currently spending time on, or maybe three, if you will. There's obviously the co-pilots of this world. So, all the cloud native capabilities we built we obviously natively built copilot into it. It gives a better user experience. And all of those things that, that is, that is great. And we see a great uptake in all of that. I would say, given that we have all the data sitting in the Investment Book of Record and the Accounting Book of Record already. That’s a wonderful starting point for more sophisticated AI as well. Can you optimize your settlement process? Can you do better reconciliation? All of these things? The reality there, and it's potentially a question to the industry, if you will. To have proper AI, you obviously need to train your model. And the more data you can train it on the better the models become. But let's face it. We are operating with the most sophisticated and most regulated part of the industry. So, sharing data for training AI models across organizations is a very difficult conversation. And so, we have kind of a conundrum here, where everybody wants to have sophisticated training for their models, but nobody is willing to share data.
Hiten: Oh!
Christian: And it’s really something that I think everybody is aware of it. But at the same time everybody is super concerned on data compliance for the right reasons. Right? Let's face it. We want financial institutions to be regulated, but for an AI situation, it’s interesting. And obviously, SimCorp do not own data. We're a technology firm. We only have our client's data. That's we don't have, the clients have that data. And we now need to figure out how we solve that problem for the industry, as we go forward.
Hiten: That's wonderful. I'm going to move us on to the final chapter of our conversation, Christian. Just again, listeners really benefit from listening to some of the reflections that successful senior leaders have had. So, I wanted to invite you to share, like what are what are some of the most interesting challenges that you face from anywhere on that journey that you described right? What? What would be some of the things that you'd call out that you think could be, you know, a point of note to others who are early on or earlier on in their career journeys.
Christian: Yeah, I would say, I would say on a personal level, obviously figuring out what you're good at. That was for me kind of an evolution. I never really, I know it sounds like a cliche, I never really had a plan, but I always knew what I wanted next, if you will, if that makes sense. I feel probably the biggest kind of, it's probably a mindset change. I talked a bit about before, about then being in the end of the table, and kind of taking that responsibility in both emotionally but also, what do you do about it, has been probably an evolution over time. I'll say leading global teams, but also having clients globally, its takes time to get under your skin. But the world is just extremely different. They might at the tin look like they're all doing the same. But buying behaviors are different. Communication is different and I remember at some point I said it was really a desire for me to be able to have clients in everywhere in the world. And I'm glad I made that investment because I can see that it's benefiting me now, and it's probably two things. It's navigating an international world, but also have the appreciation for the differences.
Christian: And SimCorp is now more global than ever. And leading such a team is not something you just do out of the gate, I'd say. Probably on a on a personal level, finding the right balance between work and private life is an ever-changing challenge, right? It's fair to say I've had a very supporting and patient family through the years. And that's certainly something I recommend that instead of not talking about it, that people talk with their families about what's going on to, let's face it, it's not a 9 to 5 job. It is literally your brain is always working at some point, right? And it's a marathon, it's not a sprint.
Hiten: You're really selling this breakfast table image at your household. You get to talk about long-term career options. You get to talk about the challenges the asset manager industry face. But jokes aside. Just go there for me a little bit like what? What are? What do you do outside of work that you know either a hobby or an interest that helps you kind of helps you unwind or helps you focus when you come back right into your high-pressured seat.
Christian: Had to obviously try to stay fit, which is necessary when you have to attend so many dinners and stuff, I always bring my running shoes. So, when you travel a lot, just the fact that you had a run around the city, you actually feel you've been there, instead of just going into the office right. I enjoy, I enjoy that very much, but probably the passion is music, and I've always had a great passion for music and as a whole, but also to play music. So, I'm a drummer. Playing drums, for since I was 15, and still enjoy it very much.
Hiten: And what are you drumming along to when you're releasing after a tough day?
Christian: A little bit on the harder side. But the funny thing is that what I like to listen to is not necessarily the same thing that is fun to drum.
Hiten: Interesting.
Christian: Because you want something that, you know, I've had plenty of pieces of music, where, if I played it myself, I would never have listened to it. But once I got into it and understood the dynamics of the song, suddenly it kind of opens up. So that’s really fun.
Hiten: That's awesome. That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for sharing. Sharing last question. We like to invite guests to throw the spotlight. So, call out an individual, or a company, preferably not your own, that's impressing you right now that you want listeners and viewers to pay attention to.
Christian: Yeah, no, it's a good question. So, I thought a bit about it right now I knew that you would ask me that question. So, I think there's a couple of categories. But what has always fascinated me is people that can perform in separate contexts, right? Meaning that, I think one of your other interviews I really liked because performing and succeeding in a particular company is depending on many things. As a CEO, you can do everything right, but the circumstances are somehow prohibiting that. Or all the other way around, you can just be at the right place at the right time, and you're seen as the savior of the new world, right? So, it always fascinated me when people could do it several times. And there's not in the corporate world there's many examples in that. But funny enough some of these things I find in the in the sports world. There was Phil Jackson, right that managed to take several teams on the basketball scene through to winning by applying his methods in different contexts. That fascinates me a lot. In the soccer world, probably Pep Guardiola has done it, kind of brought his own philosophy around all that. In the music industry there's a few examples of that, whereas, who you used to be the drummer of Nirvana is now the lead guitarist and singer of Foo Fighters, right? The fact that you can do these things that are over and over again, and that there's plenty of people that has done that I could that I could point to. But I don't think there's anybody in particular there. Of course, on the other side, most of my career, I've been operating companies that was already created right.
Christian: I've taken them from one level to the other. People, and I would say, obviously, it's natural to look into what's going on in the AI space. Now, front runners of those companies, having the guts to believe in something that people don't even understand they need has always fascinated me as well. But I'm not really the person to single out individual names, but doing this, doing it over and over again is always what gives me, that impresses me, and is also for me a clear goal with my career, to see if I can actually make an impact in more than one time.
Hiten: It's such a beautiful way of looking at it. Actually, your, the repeatability and the transportability. I think the world doesn't pay enough attention to the way you just frame things right. I mean, I go back to like the ancient times. They always seem to kind of wax lyrical about the Polymaths, right? Who could do all of these things? But we’ve got ourselves in an era now where it is very single and individual focus. So, thank you for sharing that. I'm gonna, it's gonna change the way I review things now. So that's awesome. And I will, I will look out for you on LinkedIn when your next role is the drummer of a band that's going on world tour.
Chistian: I had to succeed in my professional career, because I'm not that good at drumming so.
Hiten: Well look, Christian. Thank you for being so generous with your time. Magnus, thank you for joining and sharing your views. It's been wonderful to have this conversation so appreciate you coming on.
Christian: Have a great day. Thank you.
Magnus: Thank you, Christian. Thank you, Hiten.
